Brought to you by the Depression Is Real Coalition, The Down & Up Show is dedicated to the reality of depression. Each week our hosts will talk with some of the world's top experts on depression, as well as people who have been impacted by this illness. The reality of depression is that it is a debilitating and potentially deadly medical condition that affects more than 15 million Americans every year. The other reality of depression is that there is hope.

Down & Up Show #14: Motherhood and Postpartum Depression

IAN VO DOWN & UP INTRO:
The Down & Up Show on Depression Is Real.org. A show dedicated entirely to the subject of depression, and the reality that there is hope for people living with this disease. Now, your host, Terrie Williams.

TERRIE WILLIAMS INTROS:
Welcome to the Down and Up Show on Depression is Real.org, I'm Terry Williams your guest host filling in for Dr. Ellen Frank. Today we will be speaking with the former first lady of New Jersey, Mary Jo Codey. Mrs. Codey's husband, Dick Codey, was the 53rd governor of the State of New Jersey and is currently the president of the New Jersey State Senate.

Mrs. Codey is a survivor of both clinical depression and breast cancer and has made it her mission to speak out on both of these serious health issues. Having suffered from post-partum depression with both her pregnancies, she is a member of the President's Advisory Council of Post-Partum Support International, a non-profit organization that aims to raise awareness and provide support for maternal mental health in every community.

The Codeys also played a key role in the passage of New Jersey's groundbreaking, post-partum depression screening and education law which took us back in October 2006. Mrs. Codey is a member of the New Jersey Education Association and she currently teachers basic skills at an elementary school in West Orange. She is a woman on fire.

Mary Jo, thank you so much for being with us today.

MARY JO CODEY ANSWER:
Well thank you for having me.

TERRIE WILLIAMS:
IÉ when I think about you, I justÉ I think about your being a woman on fire.

MARY JO CODEY:
Yeah, I feel like a woman on fire, I have a mission to accomplish and I don't think I'll rest until it's accomplished.

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
IÉ I so understand it, so do youÉ would you say, I'm going to ask you to just describe a little bit about what your experience was with post-partum depression because I think so many people don't really know what it looks like, what it feels like, what it sounds like. Would youÉ would you give us a little bit of insight into that?

MARY JO CODEY ANSWER:
SureÉ my experience with post-partum depression began as soon as I delivered my son, I woke up with contractions on a Saturday morning and I couldn't wait, I wasn't even afraid cause I knew in about nine hours I'd be holding my baby. And then he was born, I just was indifferent. I didn't want to hold him, I took the phone off the hook and I was very withdrawn and I didn't have any idea what post-partum depression was. And then three months later when my son was about three months old, I began having intrusive thoughts about hurting him. And I'd have them like 10, 12 times a day. And I checked myself into a mental institution but I really didn't find much help there. So it was quiteÉ quite a devastating illness that I wished would never happen to another person.

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
And there was just no one, you were alone with those feelings, there really wasn't anyone that you could share that with?

MARY JO CODEY ANSWER:
IÉ of course I shared them with my husband, these thoughts that I had, with my husband. He'd come home from work and I would just cry. But nobody, professional as well as non-professional, knew what my problem was and I didn't know why I was feeling this way which made the guilt even worse.

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
I can imagineÉ you spoke about justÉ feeling prettyÉ pretty much alone in that feeling. Was itÉ what was it like for you to make that decision to check yourself into the mental facility, mental health facility?

MARY JO CODEY ANSWER:
UmÉ I thinkÉI had one night a horrible intrusive thought about putting the baby in the microwave and I quit. When my husband came home I said, I can't fight these thoughts anymore, they're terrible, I need to go to a psychiatric hospital, I thought for life, I'm done. AndÉ what else do you do when you have psychological problems like that, but quit and justÉ I didn't go to a mental hospital thinking I was going to get help there, I thought, this is where they put people like me.

TERRIE WILLIAMS:
It's interesting, IÉ I think that you may know when we spoke briefly that I'm a depression sufferer as well and for me the turning point was that I felt like if I had cut myself and required stitches, I would go to a hospital.

MARY JO CODEY: Exactly.

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
SoÉ and I think it's just something that people really, really do need to know and be able toÉ you know to speak about. Do you think there's anything at all in your background that might have put you at any kind of risk for theÉ for the depression?

MARY JO ANSWER:
Yes and I'm glad that you asked that. When I was in my mid-20's I suffered from a mild depression and if depression is in your history, you're at greater risk for post-partum depression. But it's just notÉ post-partum depression isn't discussed so how would women know that?

They don't even check for depression when you go in for aÉ for a baby, they don't check for your record for depression, they just kind of ignore it.

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
And you menÉ you're right about that. When you were in your 20's, how did that manifest itself, this mild depression, did you know what to call it then?

MARY JO ANSWER:
I knew that it was a depression because I knew I could pass the physical and I didn't want to get out of bed, I didn't want to look in the mirror, but I didn't have suicidal thoughts. And when I went to a psychiatrist, that was the first time I went to a psychiatrist, IÉ I didn't even require medication, it wasn't that severe and it wasn't that long lasting.

But I knew I could pass a physical, so there was something psychologically wrong and I had to go to a psychiatrist.

TERRIE WILLIAMS:
I think thatÉ do you feel that in anyway that it had to do with a particular transition in your life because I think that a lot of times people don't realize that you're very, that we could be very susceptible toÉ episodic depression, say if there's a life transition andÉ

MARY JO CODEY:
Right and when you have a baby, there's definitely a life transition and that adds to stress and stress certainlyÉ certainly doesn't help.

TERRIE WILLIAMS:
Right.

MARY JO CODY:
So I think it really did add to it.

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
So how would youÉ how would you say the recovery was for you?

MARY JO CODEY ANSWER:
The recovery took a year, they tried me on different anti-depressants every month and none of them worked, psychiatric hospital really didn't help. And then in August they tried a different kind of medication called an MAO inhibitor and then within two weeks I stopped having the intrusive thoughts.

And when I stopped having those thoughts, the depression lifted and it was the first time I could be a mom when my son was almost a year old. I mean I was being a mother the whole time, but I was doing it from my head and not my heart. So IÉ I think itÉ for me it took a year but for other moms, I don't want them to get discouraged by myÉ by my long recovery because some moms can get over it in a couple of months if they're aware of what it is and they know right away to get help.

IÉ I stopped having selective suicide and I knew I wasÉ I was over the hump.

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
Are you still being treated in any way for depression?

MARY JO CODEY ANSWER:
Yes, I tried three times in my lifetime to get off of antidepressants andÉ I just would get depressed, mildly depressed, no more intrusive thoughts, but why should I be mildly depressed? I feel good on my medication, so I'm staying on it, just like a diabetic would say on his or her medication, I'm staying on my medication.
And I'm not ashamed of it, it's just something that I need.

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
Yes. QuestionÉ do you feel on some levelsÉ that your role as first lady of the State of New Jersey has been beneficial to you in terms of this calling, if you will, if I may call it that, for you?

MARY JO CODEY ANSWER:
I think because I was the former first lady of New Jersey, I had a voice that people who suffer from mental disorders get ignored too often and I know what it's like to be one of the voiceless. I came out of my depression thinking it was unfair for families not to be educated about post-partum depression because it's a woman's illness, it's notÉ I mean it's not a woman's illness, it's a family illness and I didn't want any other families to have to go through what my family and I had experienced.

TERRIE WILLIAMS:
Yeah, I understand exactly what you're saying. I think that itÉ it did take a lot of courage and I think that for so many peopleÉ so many people feel as if they're standing on the ledge by themselvesÉ

MARY JO CODEY:
Right.

TERRIE WILLIAMS:
And so it is just enormously helpful for someone to speak their truth and then the floodgates start to open.

MARY JO CODY:
Right and it's important, many people would comeÉ come to the table and talk about their mental problems but nobody really wants to listenÉ if you have the title of being a first lady, then people will listen. And I used that and I ran with it because I didn't want anyone to suffer like I did.

TERRIE WILLIAMS:
And your husband, he's been very supportive.

MARY JO CODEY:
And he isÉ a long-time advocate for the mentally ill, so when he became governor, we knew we had the windowÉ the window of opportunity to make some important changes. So weÉ so we took them, it didn't take us long when he became governor, at all to figure out what our agenda was because we had lived it and we knew it was so isolating. So it took us about two minutes to decide to do this.

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
What are some of the ways that you think, Mary Jo, that we canÉ erase the stigma of mental illnessÉ because it's almostÉ

MARY JO CODEY ANSWER:
I think by speaking out on it without a lot of shame, it makes other people more comfortable with it. I think the whole thing with Brook Shields and Tom Cruise, even though it was really bad about, you know, post-partum depression, it had people talking about it, it gave it aÉ aÉ an easier way to talk about it when you talk about other people that have it. It makes other people knowledgeable about it, brings it to the forefront.

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
And your kids, Kevin and ChristopherÉHow are they doing these days?

MARY JO CODEY ANSWER:
They're doing great. Christopher just graduated from MKA High School and he's going to Rutgers in the fall and Kevin just graduated from Drew University and he has a job, so he's paying his own bills which is a great thing.

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
And what about their sensitivity to mental illness because I think that so many times people, especially young people, are just silently suffering and don't really have a forum in which to speak about it. Is it something that they are attuned to?

MARY JO CODEY ANSWER:
Oh definitely, they're definitely attuned to it because I taught them what mental illness was from the very beginning, they grew up with itÉ

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
Did you?

MARY JO CODEY ANSWER:
I did it slowly, I told them at first there was something wrong with me, when they were born, and then IÉ as they got older I educated them about depression and how to beÉ how to ask for help if they needed it and how to tell other people if they found out and how they could help.

TERRIE WILLIAMS:
It's interesting thatÉ that you say that because I think that so many times we as adults hide things from young people, but it's not like they can't see it.

MARY JO CODEY:
And they can feel it too.

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
So the fact that you took that initiative to share that with them isÉ is very powerful. Question, another question for youÉ what makes you laugh, what brings you joy?

MARY JO CODEY ANSWER:
My teaching, I teach kindergarten and they make meÉ they make me happy, they keep me grounded and they certainly make me laugh. And I like to garden, I love to garden and teaching and gardening and playing golf are what me happy.

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
Are those some of the things, had you always had interest in those areas or those were things that you began to do to help yourself to stayÉ stay strong and focused?

MARY JO CODEY ANSWER:
Well I always wanted to teach, but I didn't always want to play golf. Everybody around me in my family, they played golf, so I figured I'd better start playing golf or I'll be a golf widow. And I really enjoy it, I'm not really good at it, but I enjoy it.

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
What sustains you in yourÉ in your darkest moments, what was it that kept you holding onÉ is faith a factor in your life?

MARY JO CODEY ANSWER:
I thinkÉ and I shouldn't say I think, I know St. Jude because I went to Catholic school all my life and St. Jude was the patron saint of hopeless cases and when I get really, really down, I go to St. Jude becauseÉ sometimes when you're depressed you feel really hopeless. So he's the oneÉ or she's the one that keeps me sustained.

TERRIE WILLIAMS:
That's funnyÉ

MARY JO CODEY:
You never knowÉ

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
No, no that'sÉ that's for sure, you're absolutely right about that. Can you tell us a little bit about theÉ recognizing post-partum depression, speak-up when you're down andÉ just the kind of the impact that you've seen from the effort?

MARY JO CODEY:
OkayÉ the House Bill is HR20, the Melanie Stokes Postpartum Depression Research and Care Act and it was introduced by Congressman Bobby Rush of Illinois several years ago. And last year Senator Menendez from New Jersey introduced the Mother's Act which is modeled on New Jersey's law and incorporates the HR20.

Both bills were reintroduced this spring and they're designed to provide more research and more education. And we just heard that the H20 received a unanimous vote in the subcommittee and it's gone to committee for approval. And Senator Menendez and Kennedy and working to push the Mother's Act through review.

So I'm hopeful that we may see a federal version of New Jersey's law before too much longer.

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
That'sÉ that's so critical. Did you ever in your life when you were growing up, think about how you were going to make a difference in the world and you know, do youÉ on some levels I seeÉ I think that blessings really have a way of disguising themselves.

MARY JO CODEY ANSWER:
I agree. No, I never thought that, never. And IÉ I never planned on it except for when I hadÉ such a terrible post-partum depression that I knew I never wanted it to happen to another woman. So I justÉ I decided when I was 29 that I would try to change things.

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
Have you ever thought about writing a book, to take the message to another level?

MARY JO CODEY ANSWER:
I'm not a great writer but I did write a book for my sons, I wanted them to know how much I wanted them andÉ I wanted them to know the whole story from my perspective, so it's a book that I gave a copy to each one of them and I told them to read it whenever they were ready to, it they wanted to read it at all.

But it said I love them and I wanted them to know that post-partum depression had nothing to do with them.

TERRIE WILLIAMS:
Oh that is really incredible. Because I came across a book not too long ago that was just about healing or just sharing with young people about how to deal with the death of, you know, a loved one. And I justÉ I really, really love young people and I thinkÉ

MARY JO CODEY:
Me too.

TERRIE WILLIAMS:
And I think that we don't give them the kind of creditÉ

MARY JO CODEY:
Exactly.

TERRIE WILLIAMS:
You know that we should.

MARY JO CODEY:
Because they feel everything.

TERRIE WILLIAMS:
Yeah, you know I was thinking there'sÉ I read an article in the Chicago Tribune that Illinois is the first state that has begun to develop a curriculum around how young people are doing on an elementary school level so that there is a time of the day where they talk about their high points for the day and their low points for the day.

MARY JO CODEY:
Right.

TERRIE WILLIAMS:
So that you canÉ just begin to know what's going on with them cause so many times because of the childhood wounds and scars that there are and then day-to-day slights that you never have an opportunity to process, you don't talk about it.

MARY JO CODEY:
And also that that interferes with their learningÉ

TERRIE WILLIAMS:
Absolutely.

MARY JO CODEY:
If they have something major on their mind like a divorce or someone died, they don't really care about the sound of ÒdÓ. You can tell I teach kindergarten right? I said you could tell I teach kindergarten when I'm telling you that they don't really worry about the sound that ÒdÓ makesÉ

TERRIE WILLIAMS:
Right. Yeah but I think that'sÉ you know that's your next move and you can even play some things out with the youngÉ they youngsters that you're working withÉ

MARY JO CODEY:
I think that would be (unint.).

TERRIE WILLIAMS:
I look forward to that Mary Jo Codey.

MARY JO CODEY:
Thank you.

TERRIE WILLIAMS QUESTION:
Do you have any closing thoughts that you would like to share with our listeners?

MARY JO CODEY ANSWER:
Yes I thinkÉ if you go through a depression, don't goÉ don't go through it alone, speak up when you're down and it would make it a lot easier.

TERRIE WILLIAMS:
Okay, thank you so very much Mary Jo for speaking with us so openly about your lifeÉ I'm so encouraged by all that you do, continue to stay strong and share that amazing light of yours.
For Depression is Real Coalition, I'm Terrie Williams, join us next time for another segment of the Down and Show on Depression is Real.org. Stay Strong.

IAN VO CLOSE
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